Hello everyone.

A Sehing of mine in Hong Kong sent me an article from the Chinese news express, but I don't read Chinese. Unfortunately the google translator does not do a very good job. Is anyone here able to translate this?

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关於咏春拳的一些看法－－驳居心叵测之徒　

　　（中国新闻快讯）　近日电影叶问与咏春拳的放映令人们对中国文化再起热潮，各种评论纷至，有位山东籍的赵元先生，报社投稿，发表了一篇令人深思的文章。

　　　赵先生陈述如下：“在看完电影《叶问》后，其儿子在美国网路上看到一位自称教授咏春拳的美国华人，竟胡言乱语称黑旗会与少林寺咏春拳有关。这实在是对中国历史和武林野史不认识，不了解或别有用心的鼠辈。

　　　我原籍山东，我祖父母一家全死在黑旗会土匪之乱。当年日本侵略我东三省，，五旗会是山东一带的响马贼，五旗会中，尤以黑旗会最令人发指，盖因该会实为汉奸，帮日本人杀害中国民众与军人，这在中国近代史上是有案可稽的。

中国武术在国外很受欢迎，但是有一些居心不良的骗子在国外竟敢篡改历史，称这帮五旗会土匪为反清复明的地下组织，实在是最大的谎言。黑旗会的土匪如其名---心很黑：替日本鬼子杀害无数中国同胞。现在，我竟在网上看到这样一位认贼作父的美国华人混蛋在胡言乱语，其所作所为实在是令每个中国人忍无可忍，这与日本人否认南京大屠杀有何分别？是对我中国人的最大侮辱。这是咱们中国人的无知，还是恶梦不散？我们中国人不能麻木了，站起来戳穿汉奸嘴脸，捍卫武林尊严！

讀者 主者赵元

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Thank you so much for any help.

~Steve

I was able to get a translation at martial talk forum here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88994

Hey there,

What's all that coloured flag Wing Chun all about? I noticed many discussions on US forums. Is this a kind of new hype? Never heard of it in 20 years. Or was it sooooo secret? ;-

Hello Dave,

I have talked to a couple people about it, it seems the whole US is laughing at this person Sergio Iadarola. He did a Bai Si discipleship to the black flag teacher Kenneth Lin of Virginia. I've found many reference that they change their system's history and steal from the other Wing Chun out there. Kenneth Lin used to be a VIKOGA wing chun teacher and now denies it altogether!

Do many people in Europe know of this type of Wing Chun?

I think we can say that we didn't have it until now.. as Mr. Iadarola is Dutch...

Since a few years there suddenly was Weng Chun, a different lineage as Ip Man  which is somehow....totally different, but used Ip Man  for all their marketing, bringing it down very often in sayings like "Ip Man didn't learn the complete system, Ip man didn't this and that..." Anyway, the discussions kind of closed saying that their system is totally different...

Now I see this hype from the US suddenly crossing the ocean, and I was wondering what is going on. And... who invented something 'new' again...;-)

Hello Dave,

I didn't know much about Sergio until I asked about black flag, it seems he has made a lot of enemies worldwide! I know of Weng Chun through a student of Chu Chong Man, but have never practised it personally. From what I saw it had much more in common with animal styles or Bak Mei than Wing Chun.

What organisation did Sergio start with? I heard he made his own organization so that he could make the transitions from allegiance to allegiance easier.

Hey,

As far as I know and remember, he started with Frank Shäfer, a student of Keith Kernspecht. Later he started his own organisation where he was teaching WT (Wing Tjun) after that, he started Weng Chun from Andreas Hoffmann. Later switch to a system form somebody called Cheng Kwong. Now he's into the Black Flag, after investigating the roots of 'the system'.

Personally, I'd like to keep my personal relation towards mr Iadarola on a more friendly level. He received me twice in his school, explaining why he did things the way he did. Towards me he always was very respectful. He even gave me a very rare magazine with some rare pictures of Sifu Wong Shun Leung. Recently he even invited me to go to Ip Mans grave together, and... show 'better ways of  ' in Hongkong during my visit there, as he lives there now. But I choose not to meet him. First because of my short time schedule there. But also..., because I am not seeking for new truths.

Dave,

Wise advice any way you slice it, I am not someone he wronged so I wish him no ill either. Wing Chun has enough politics, it doesn't need me to make more

Thanks for the chat.

Official beginning of the VTM Project was back in 1993
 
By 1995, the Ground Breaking was complete and the Organizing Committee was
formed. Grand Masters Moy Yat, Ip Chun, and Ip Ching were present at the
Ground Breaking Event.
 
For the next 3 years, the focus of the VTM was on the Ip Man lineage of Wing
Chun. We investigated the Ip Man lineage with Grand Masters Moy Yat, Ip
Chun, Ip Chung, Tsui Shong Tin, Ho Kam Ming, Mak Po, Leung Shun, William
Cheung, and many other Sifu in the 2nd Generation from Ip Man.
 
By 1998, the VTM had the official Grand Opening, and began to investigate
the non-Hong Kong branches of Wing Chun. When China changed policies and
opened their doors in the 1980s, information on Wing Chun in China started
to trickle into the West. We came into contact with many lineages outside
the Ip Man (Hong Kong) lineage. Therefore, the VTM created a second
classification of Wing Chun: Gwongdong Wing Chun (or Wing Chun from the
Canton Province). Within the Canton Province, there are many lineages,
primarily centered around the city of Fatsaan (Foshan in Mandarin). Lineages
from Canton province include: Yuen Kay-San, Pan Nam, Chan Wah Shun / Chan
Yiu Min, Mai Gei Wong, Cheung Bo, Gulao, and others. A few of Ip Man's
students from his time in China were teaching, with a different expression
of the system compared to his Hong Kong students. The VTM interacted with
many of these lineages in person through numerous trips to Hong Kong and
China. During the process of research with the mainland lineages, we came
across lineages which the VTM today classifies as Shaolin Wing Chun. 
 
There are two systems that the VTM classifies as Shaolin Wing Chun: Hung Fa
Yi Wing Chun Paai and Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Paai. These two systems contain
the original three treasures of Shaolin, which are: Chan Buddhism,
Health/Qigong, and Combat/Self-Defense/Martial Art skills. Both lineage are
relatively unknown to the wider public due to their ties to Chinese secret
societies in the past, with customs dating back to the founding of the Hung
Mun during the Ming/Qing struggles during the 1600s. The oral traditions in
both lineages do not follow the legends of a nun teaching a young girl by
the name of Yim Wing Chun. Their cultures and traditions follow the
movements of the ancient secret societies' efforts to overthrow the Qing
Dynasty. The VTM labels these lineages as Shaolin Wing Chun because they
still maintain a focus on the three treasures of Shaolin, while the systems
from Hong Kong and Canton researched to date are based on the teachings and
preferences of individually great martial artists. Both lineages also
maintain a related schema of Heaven/Earth/Human symbolism and are centered
on the core principle of Time/Space/Energy.
 
In modern times, the secret society tradition of blood oaths and enforced
secrecy, both arts have begun to come out to the public and reveal the depth
and breadth of their treasures. The VTM has focused on the HFY lineage since
1999 and has begun research into the HKB lineage since 2008.
 
With the journeys through the Hong Kong Wing Chun, Canton Wing Chun, and now
Shaolin Wing Chun, I believe the VTM has run the gauntlet of Wing Chun's
evolution. It is analogous to going through the layers of soil to discover
the growth and history of an ancient civilization:
*    The top layers are the most recent evolution of Wing Chun,
represented by the Hong Kong lineages to the present day
*    The middle layers are the middle-distant evolutions of Wing Chun,
represented by the Canton lineages and how they've evolved to the modern day
*    The bottom layers are the earliest forms of Wing Chun, represented
by the Shaolin Wing Chun lineages, giving insight into the proto-Wing Chun,
the melting pot of Southern Shaolin Kung Fu at the time of the Ming/Qing
struggle for control of China.
 
The classification terms the VTM uses (Hong Kong, Canton, Shaolin) were
created to define and organize research. This is not to say the Ip Man
lineage should now be referred to exclusively as Hong Kong Wing Chun, or
that Shaolin Wing Chun is a new designation for either the HFY or HKB
lineages. Rather, these terms should be understood as specific monikers used
internally to the VTM. As these great lineages continue to open up and share
more information, gain adherents, and expand their connection into the
martial arts community, it can sometimes be overwhelming or confusing when
getting too technically focused without a general education first. One of
the goals of the VTM is to provide this general education and foundation and
share it to the general martial arts community, but the final conclusion is
always in the hands of the individual martial artists. Furthermore, the VTM
has always maintained a policy of direct, personal, face-to-face interaction
in all research - and we recommend that you gain your own experience before
coming to any hard conclusions.
 
Sometimes, as human beings, we will arrive at the wrong conclusion based on
lack of experience. And, unfortunately, there will also be those with their
own personal, selfish agendas regardless of the big picture to Wing Chun's
past, present, and future who intentionally share misinformation to further
their agenda. For example, when the VTM introduced HFY to the public, there
were those within the Wing Chun martial arts community who felt it necessary
to attack and attempt to discredit both the VTM and the HFY lineage by
trying to associate the HFY secret society heritage with modern-day Triad
gangsters. The danger of this mindset or attitude is that people with this
focus misrepresent or "cherry-pick" facts to support an selfish agenda. For
example, the general term for Chinese gangsters today is 'Triad.' But
today's Triads are criminal organizations that are very far removed from the
origins in the 1600s, which were mutual-aid societies developed during a
war-torn country to preserve Chinese culture against the foreign Manchu
invasion. This theme seems to be repeating itself, with anonymous people
probobly from the same group using fictional articles to attempt to connect
the HKB lineage to criminal elements of the recent past who so happen to use
the term 'Black Flag.' There might have been a bandit organization the early
20th century in the Sandung province that used the name of 'Black Flag',
after Japanese invasion of china during 1930-40 (WWII). Also the Manchu army
within the Qing Dynasty was also organized by flag, which included a 'Black
Flag' division. The  Manchurian 8 flag system around late 1870, their 'Black
Flag' is known as black flag 7 stars, since they put 7 star and character of
"Ling" (Command)on the flag. So simply attempting to connect one 'black
flag' with another requires extensive investigation into history. The HKB
oral history goes back to the burning of the Southern Shaolin Temple in the
1600s. According to their oral tradition, there were 5 secret societies that
were formed with the express purpose of fighting to overthrow the Qing
Dynasty. Each flag was sent to a different area of China. For example, the
Red Flag went to Canton while the Black Flag - the 1st lodge and most
important - stayed in the Fukien area, around the ruins of the Southern
Shaolin Temple. So, according to research to date, this Fukien-based Black
Flag group had nothing to do with either the Sandung or Manchu Black Flag
organizations. Without being informed on Chinese History, someone with ill
intent can easily attempt to tarnish a lineage's rightful history and
traditions.
 
Finally, it is the VTM's express wish and hope that each member of every
lineage of Wing Chun continues to preserve their lineage: the unique
knowledge, skill, training methods, and culture to the best of their ability
while also maintaining an open mind. For example, if there were three
classifications and a practitioner only experiences one specific variation
of one classification, it is very challenging to see the overall
relationship between the many lineages and appreciate the beauty, breadth,
and depth of Wisdom contained within the whole of the Wing Chun martial arts
family. The hallmark of Shaolin is direct experience - the VTM urges all
honest Wing Chun practitioners to gain direct experience with the many
lineages of Wing Chun to gain a deeper appreciation for their own lineage as
well as a broader understanding of the Wing Chun family and Wing Chun's
evolution.
 
 
Sincerely,
Benny Meng, Curator
Ving Tsun Museum
August 2010
 

Hmmm, okay...history lesson again 

What about their system? Does it look like Ip Man  at all? Or is it yet another Shaolin like style?

Dave,

     I would say Yes and No.  I think maybe the second question is referring to Chi Sim?  If so, no it does not look like that.  I am not concerned with looks that much though.  I am concerened with how it functions.  I can tell you I have never seen this kind of power before anywhere!  You have to feel it for yourself to believe it. 

                                                                                               Aaron M.

Aaron,

Speaking of frauds - thanks for bringing up Benny Meng. His "museum" is a joke, and is just a front for his mengs martial arts curriculum of stolen techniques and knowledge.  You only have to look at his relationship with my Sigung, Moy Yat, to see the truth.

The list of people he's screwed over include, Moy Yat, William Chueng, Robert Chu, Andreas Hoffman and latest was Garrett Gee.

I have no ill will toward Sergio, but Benny is pure garbage. I'm sure it won't be long before he screws over this Lin guy too.

Good luck and I hope you don't get burned like so many others when he jumps ship again.

Dave,

     Hopefully this answers you question a little better. 

HKB Eng Chun has everything that Ip Man Wing Chun has and more.  It has all the forms, all the concepts and theory that Ip Man WC has. 

It has:
-Siu Nihm Tauh
-Chahm Kiuh
-Biu Ji
-Muhk Yahn Jong
-Butterfly Swords
-Pole Training
-As well as One and Two Handed Chi Sau
Plus much more. Which each form has it's purpose.

What is different is that HKB has:

-Heaven/Human/Earth
-Time/Space/Energy
-The Three Shaolin Treasures
-The WC Formula --- Which when this is taught to the student and they then teach it to their student.  Using this Formula, over time the system will not change.  They cannot follow their own personal views on where they think the hand/arm/body should be in relation to the movement.  They have to follow the formula.  This is why the system is still intact in it's original form since about 300 years ago.
-Huat Keng (Faat Jing) training
-Chi Gong training

I have trained in Ip Man WC.  Every single thing I have learned in Ip Man WC is in HKB Eng Chun.
The biggest difference is in the power.  You start off training HKB with a form called Sam Chian Po which develops Huat Keng (Faat Jing).  Then once you learn that, you start learning Siu Nihm Tauh.  This form is not found in any other WC out there.  This is the original information.  Imagine taking the hitting power you can use with Ip Man WC and X-ing it by about 10.  Do you think you would be happy if you could do that?

A lot of people can express very good power with Ip Man WC.  In fact one of my Sihings is very good at it.  But when he touched hands with Master Lin he was amazed how easily Master Lin affected his structure!  My Sihing has one of the two best structures I have ever seen. 
As for what HKB Eng Chun power is like, I have never seen anyone give someone a 6 inch wide bruise that puffs up with fluids 2 inches off of the arm within 3 minutes from hitting them with a Paak Sau, from 3 inches away... until now!  By the way this was a motion from left to right inside their arms, not straight out.  Not using any body movement.  Also the sound of the Paak was so loud, it was as if he hit him from over a foot away!  I also have never heard a person move their arms about 1 foot, 3 or 4 times and have it sound like they are swinging a baseball bat... while they are breathing normal and talking!

I am very happy to have the chance to be one of the first students in the U.S. to be able to train this.

                                                                                             Aaron McKillip 

Hi Aaron,

Just wondering...

If your system contains everything from the Ip Man system, then why did Yip Man leave the other stuff out?
Did he simplify it? Did he leave the (in his opinion) unnessecary things out?

Like to understand the ideas that HKB has over that...
BTW. I'd like to see a family tree from how you see the 'history' of the sytem.


Although I'm not really into the history stuff, more in application, simplicity and efficiency)

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mistery and Today is a gift, that's why it's called 'present'.  (Kung Fu Panda ;-) )


Also heard about Red Flag   What's that?
I'm doing   for nearly 20 years, and 'new' stuff keeps coming up...

Hope to keep this discussion running without people taking it up to politics too much

Hi Dave,

Sorry I took so long to get back with you about this.  I wanted to make sure I gave you good info.

"If your system contains everything from the Ip Man system, then why did Yip Man leave the other stuff out?   
Did he simplify it? Did he leave the (in his opinion) unnessecary things out?"


Ip Man did not leave the other stuff out.  I do not know if he siplified or left out unnessecary parts of what he learned or not.
During the time of the Red Boat Opera Troup.  One of the Red Boat Opera performers was a Red Flag Secret Society member.  He taught some of the info to a student who was not a Secret Society member.  He left out the most important things so he would not violate the Blood Oaths he took to never teach it to anyone.  In his situation when someone asked him to teach them.  If he refused, it would start to arrouse suspicion as to who he really was.  His student then passed it on to another and so on.  Til one day Ip Man learned the info and passed it on to his students.  During this 300 year period.  The information changed even more due to no Formula being learned or passed on which was meant to keep the system from changing over time. 

Basically if you were not a Secret Society memeber, you would never have a chance to learn the whole system of WC.  It was strictly not taught to the general public, until now!

"BTW. I'd like to see a family tree from how you see the 'history' of the sytem."

Here is a page that has a family tree of Black Flag Eng Chun.  As you can see Red Flag goes to the Red Boat Opera then to Public WC.  Which is where Ip Man WC is classified.
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html


"Also heard about Red Flag WC What's that?"

 It would take me too much time to explain. So here is a link to take you to all the information you need about Red Flag Wing Chun.
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/articles.php

"I'm doing WC for nearly 20 years, and 'new' stuff keeps coming up..."

There is nothing "new".  Red and Black Fag have been in Secret Societies for several hundred years for the purpose of bringing back the Ming Dynasty.  As a matter of fact if you even spoke the name of Red Flag WC in China during this period, you would immediately be taken into custody and thrown in jail under suspicion of ties to the Red Flag Secret Society.  So they have not been teaching to the public.  Mostly out of fear of the Blood Oath they all took, which prevents them from teaching to anyone outside of the Secret Society.  The only reason anyone knows anything about them today is because of Master Benny Meng's research into the true origin of Wing Chun.  Also Master Lin never had to take the Blood Oath in the Black Flag lineage.  I believe that his generation is the first generation that has not had to take any Blood Oaths.  Therefore we now have access to learn this great System.

I hope this helps.

                                                                                              Aaron McKillip